Monday, May 21, 2012

Flames of War- B,G & G hurts my feelings :(

'If at first you don't succeed, dust yourself off and try again'
- Aaliyah

Hey folks, SinSynn here.

The new Blood, Guts and Glory book for Flames of War has literally catapulted the American Tank Destroyer Company to the top of the heap, as far as Late War 'killer lists' are concerned. The recent win at the Adepticon Nationals by Task Force A, combined with a dedicated list from the new book has seen a lot of attention of late.
Dunno what the big deal about Task Force A is, since it's an older list from Turning Tide. Also, the guy who won Nationals wins ALL the FoW tournaments, ever, so whatevs (results are here, for those interested). Axis lists took three spots in the top five, and Best General was an Axis player, so I'm OK with that whole thing.
Be advised that 'sportsmanship' and 'fluffiness' comprise a large part of the overall scores at official FoW events, and the Flames tournament system is beyond awful (also be advised: my opinion), so again, whatevs.
To me, 'best general' is the Tournament winner. End of story.

I'm not particularly concerned about American TD companies, since I'm fairly sure Battlefront will be nerfing them.
Why? Using your recce move, followed by a double time to place your security section right in your opponent's face and then springing the TD's is...pretty foul, I gotta say. Not particularly game-breaking, though.
What is game-breaking is that they can still spring the TD's even if you shoot the entire security section DEAD.
That's right- Tanks Destroyers pop outta burning jeeps, can deploy six inches forward from said jeeps (ambush rules apply), and get their full Rate of Fire...with AT 13.
Excuse me while I make this face:
Please fix this, Battlefront.

No, my issues with B, G & G start with this guy:

*Say hello to the Easy Eight. Iz magic, apparently*

In addition to the standard three MG's that every Sherman tank enjoys (a platoon of 4 devours infantry in the open), the Easy Eight comes with so many special rules that it requires an additional line for it's Easy Army entry.
-Detroit's Finest: This tank moves 14 inches, instead of the standard 12, in open country and on roads.
-Smooth Ride: Can use Stabilizers with NO PENALTY (RoF 2) if it only moves six inches.
-Protected Ammo: Re-roll attempts to re-mount a bailed tank.
-Tank Telephones: Grants 'Eyes and Ears' to adjacent Infantry teams so they can remove Gone to Ground.
-Wide Tracks: Free a bogged-down tank immediately on a roll of 4up and continue your movement.
-Stabilizers: Fire at full RoF, with a +1 penalty to hit, after moving the full distance allowed.

Oh, and the main gun is AT 13.
For the record, the Front Armor on a Tiger Tank is 9, and a Panther is Front Armor 10.
Excuse me while I make this face:

Admittedly, this makes me a lil' sad, but just a lil.'
Whatevs, they're still FA 7, so a Panzer IV or Stug can still kill them, and they clock in at 55 points more than a standard Sherman for Confident Trained tanks, which cost 415 points for a platoon of five. This makes the final cost of an Easy Eight about 138 points.
So, kinda a lotta points to spend on a FA 7 tank. Sort of a risky investment to maybe kill a Tiger or Panther.
Or, at least it would be, if it wasn't for this guy:

*Say hello to the M4 Jumbo. Iz sooper magic!*

This thing comes with a special rule entitled 'Jumbos lead the way,' which means it sucks up the first hit from any enemy platoon, instead of the tank with the lowest armor rating.
The Jumbo is Front Armor 12, by the way.
At long range, a Panther can only bail it. That's IF the American player rolls a 1, AND the attacker passes his firepower test.
Americans can mix and match these tanks in their platoons. Since most medium tanks have AT 10 or 11 guns, this is a problem. A platoon of four Panzer IV's or Stugs roll up and throw four dice, needing 4's (trying to hit Trained enemies at long range).
The first hit goes on the Jumbo, and is nullified. Boooooooo!
Ah, but I hit one of the other tanks, right?
Sorry, the 1ic is in a Jumbo. He decides to join the platoon.
In most cases, a smart American player will bring two Easy Eight's, a Jumbo and a standard Sherman in their platoons. Hey, maybe you'll get lucky and kill or bail the regular Sherman if you do sneak a hit through, huh?

Are you an Axis player who liked to run a Panzer Kompanie, without paying for overpriced, under performing Panthers, Jagdpanthers, and King Tigers?
Join me in making this face:
Your medium tank list just got buried.

*Y U NO haz AT 13, lil' Panzer IV? Oh, wait...that can only bail a Jumbo. Magic is da suck*

The only Axis tank that can compete in the sub-185 point category (the cost of a Confident Vet Panther) is the Panzer IV/70 (A) and (B), a tank destroyer available in a specialized list in Grey Wolf.
The IV/70 (A) has Front Armor 8, the IV/70 (B) has Front Armor 9. Both come equipped with AT 14 main guns (woot!), and cost 135 points for the (A) model, and 150 points for the (B) model.
Why so cheap?
They're slow tanks (eight inch move), and they're overloaded (they bog on roll of one or two).
Sigh. I suppose it's still workable- you can pack a lotta these tanks into a list at 1500 or more points, and they have some interesting support options, like Zrinyi II assault gun.
Now, if only I liked the model for the Panzer IV/70....

* They called it 'Guderian's Duck.'*

So, since my own medium Panzer Kompanie has been wiped from the table repeatedly already, and the Ultimate Rival is bragging about being 6 and O with his new list from B, G & G, what's an Axis Tanker to do, short of  bitch, moan and complain?
I mean, uh...besides bitch, moan and complain, naturally.

The Ultimate Rival's current list features two of the 'can't touch this' Jumbo/Dual Easy Eight/Sherman platoons, a platoon of 'poof! it's magic!' M10 tank destroyers, the 1ic in a Jumbo, the 2ic in an Easy Eight, and six- count 'em...SIX... M4A3 105's.

The M4A3's have Detroit's Finest, and Protected Ammo, and Breakthrough Guns, and they can Bombard (AT 4, 4+ fire power)...Six of them use the double-wide template or re-roll hits, in fact.
Must. Not. Make. That. Face. Again...

*Special Delivery for the Ultimate Rival*

I'm not one for the Reluctant Trained Panther list from B, G & G, to be honest. I find it hysterical that while Axis players are freaking out about the American Tank Destroyer list, the Allies are all in a tizzy about this. Neither of these lists can do much of anything but stare angrily at dug in infantry, really.

The Ultimate Rival's list utilizes all of the new B, G & G special rules and creates a perfect storm of armor. -The entire M10 platoon counts as recce, always- even after the TD's spring.
-The 105's can bombard, or run up and use the Breakthrough guns on infantry.
-Every tank in the list has an AA machine gun on it.
-Jumbos suck up hits on the two tank platoons.
-There's tons of AT 13 (M10's and Easy Eights), and a bunch of special movement and ambush rules.
 ...Ugh, just ugh.

Welp, after da bitching, moaning and complaining (example: the Ultimate Rival is a big ol' jerk, and his list is OP), and possibly threats (example: Oh, yeah? Well, the Battle of the Bulge book is coming! And I'm buying 10 Panthers!), Axis Tankers are gonna have to make some concessions.
- AT 14+ is now pretty much mandatory.

- More aggressive maneuver is required- Jumbos are Side Armor 8- AT 11 (Panzer IV's, Stugs) will do.
- Artillery with AT 4 or better is something to consider more seriously now. Nebs are not enough of a threat.
- The Trained lists from Grey Wolf (SS Wiking and the aforementioned Panzer IV/70's) are looking better.
- Better dust off those Hornisse models, if ya got 'em. Figure out how to keep 'em alive, too.

*Take a giant gun. Mount on treads. Garnish with bushes*

The new American tanks in Blood, Guts and Glory are pretty nasty, and the once-mighty Panther has been reduced to 'annoying at best,' it seems. They die from the front now, to tanks that cost less.
I'm still experimenting, but I'm leaning towards a Danish Wiking list, myself.

-1ic, 2 ic in Panthers
-3 Panthers
-4 Panzer IV's
-4 Panzer IV's
-2 AA halftracks
-2 8-Rads
-3 Nebs

I hafta rely on the Panthers and Panzer IV's to stop enemy tanks, including the new Yanks. The rest will aid in dealing with Infantry/Mech lists.
I better get used to being shot on 3's.
I'm gonna make this face for a while:

*crosses fingers and hopes for upgrades in the next Late War book*

Until Next time, folks- Exit with catchphrase!



  1. LOL

    Dude, stop winging and wining like a six year old, use your brain for a change and learn how to defeat a BG&G tank force as Brits, Russians and the US tank players have had to do against a panther force right from the start, just because you are defeated doesn't mean something is broken, I know quite a few german panzer players that have had no problems, so bfore starting to winge use that brain that is hopefully in your head and come up with a strategy to defeat a BG&G tank force.


  2. This comment has been removed by the author.

    1. Eh Misspelt reponse. I think you need to relax, and work on new tactics. American players have had it hard and now the playing field is even and you have found out you are no good. just turn around and try different tactics.

    2. 'and you have found out you are no good.'

      Response A)- like your spelling, obviously.
      Response B)- Yer mom was no good when I stuck it to her last night.

      Choose one.
      Thanks for playing.

    3. Actually...I take that back and apologize.
      I don't want Loquacious mad at me.

      'Being good' at a mini game is...a sorta silly thing to aspire to, Noack, don'tcha think.
      I prefer fun, and cursing, and bitching, moaning and complaining, and hating on the Ultimate Rival.

      I would ask you, and the other cats accusing me of 'whining,' to actually READ the post.
      Tactical recommendations, and a new list, were at the bottom.
      Thanks for taking the time to comment, I suppose, and again- sorry for the snappy response.
      I'm from the Bronx. That's how we do here.

  3. I have one question. Why was it ok for Axis/Russian Tankers to smash Yank armour 6-0 before BGG, yet now that Yanks have decent shermans its not ok?

    Im sorry, but envy and jelousy is not an excuse to poor tactics. You cant expect to win against new lists where the Shermans are actually good tanks for once.

    Thank back to Shermans from TT, think how hard American players had to move around the board. tables have turned. learn 2 play.

    1. Or maybe I could run an 11 Panther RT list from B, G & G, since I know everyone that's not an Axis player loves that list, right?
      You can make that face if you like, wiseguy.

      'Learn to play'?
      Sigh and yawn, buddeh.

      FoW is rife with 'power lists.'
      Hit the forums- here's the thread about the Panther list 'ruining the game.'

      Here's the one about American TD lists entitled 'the next nerfing.'

      I never run power lists. Heck, I never run Panthers, even. I was a fan of the medium tank swarm (Panzer IV's and Stugs), which plays pretty much the same as an American Sherman list.
      Minus the Tank Destroyer shenanigans, of course.

      And let's be clear here- the only person I know that even plays an American Tank list is the Ultimate Rival.
      Any tank player in the game knows his primary concern is Infantry, dude. You DO understand that, right?
      All I need to do is toss some Panthers in my list to deal with the new Americans.

  4. Ya whiney little bitch, i dont even play any of these armies, so i have no real side to take, but reading this article is just annoying.

  5. excellent let the hate grow within you soon you shall turn back to the dark side and GW shall once again reign unopposed

    Hope all is well with you and yours

    Dragons Claw

    1. Hey, DC!
      All is well, my friend, thank you.

      Anger is a gift.

  6. Hey guys, sorry that you disagree with his opinion. The negativity and unkind responses are totally uncalled for. There are plenty of ways to discuss differences without the put downs.


    1. Don't be sorry, Lo.'
      If they choose to interpret my 'bitching, moaning and complaining' as ACTUAL bitching, moaning and complaining, and not jokes (I put a winky....did they not see the winky?), it's because American Tanks have been mediocre for like, ever.

      I'm getting a laff outta the American players saying things like 'use new tactics. Learn to play.'
      Cuz, y'know, that worked for them so well when their medium tanks were outclassed.

      The balance swings every time a new book is released.
      I'll take Aaliyah's advice for now.
      I put the quote at the top of the post, but some commentors missed it, apparently.

    2. You may have a quote at the top saying try again, however, throughout your post you complain about being outclassed by the newer/better American Tanks. What you have written is not sarcasm, its not playful, is simply you complaing that you cannot beat the new American Tanks.

      So, in contrast, old American Tankers had to L2 play and you lolz at them. Now you are being told to L2 play. the shit end of the stick does not smell so good does it.

      buck up and move on, and dont waste the interwebs with your shitty stick.

    3. Please go back to the forums, dude.
      You're not a regular reader of mine, so you don't know where I'm coming from.

      AS I mentioned elsewhere, if I REALLY, wanted to 'beat American tanks,' I'd bring infantry.

    4. Back to the forums... where everyone can see that you're a whining 3 year old git. If you havnt got the stones to say you were wrong, then ingornace is bliss mate. keep up the shit work.

    5. Since you guys have proven you can't follow the rules here, I'll show you the door.

      Comments are now OFF for this post.

  7. On your Wiking list. Drop the Nebels make the AA HTs armored quads and put a Panzer Kanone in two of the Panzer platoons, maybe the 2 P4 platoons or split between the Panthers and a PIV platoon.

    That list was good enough for 4th at Adepticon Nationals.

    1. I've been toying with...oh, about a dozen Wiking variants....
      The Kanone rules are something I'm messing with, because at 65 points, it can be a pretty amazing upgrade. At the very least you're re-rolling Stormtrooper- that alone can make a huge difference.
      Having to roll 4's to Stormtrooper takes a bit of getting used to!
      Fearless is awesome, though....
      Yeah, kinda liking the Wiking list.

      As amusing as the Americans are, infantry will remain my primary concern at tournaments. If American tanks scared me that much, I'd go back to playing Grenadiers!
      As the only member of the 'I hate the Ultimate Rival' club, it's my job to stop his streak, you see.

  8. One thing I will say is you missed "gun tanking" the easy eights at long range. Jumbos lead the way only really works like you advertise when Jumbos are at short range, with the other Shermans at long range. You cannot "gun tank" the regular sherman because it is not different enough to let them be picked out.

    Understand the frustration with this list. German tanks have been the be all to end all armor lists in FoW. Now, things are a little more "even".

    King Tiger (FoW forum name)

    1. You are correct, KT.
      I did fail to mention gun tanking in the post.
      Since none of you FoW forum cats have read any of my other posts, you don't know I have an issue with the Dice Gods.
      I don't roll 5ups, my friend. Ever.
      I rarely even roll a four or better, and I take pics when I roll a 6, to prove it happened.

      Therefore, it's a tactic I don't even consider.